OU DPP OU Viability Ranking: mk. V

Hi,

I really like the thoughtfulness of this post. But I am really curious, what niche do you feel Magcargo fulfills? I have never seen it used, nor do I really know what it would do. But if you've seen it or even used it before and can speak to this I am really interested to learn. Magcargo is one of my faves but I haven't seen it make much of a splash in any tier ever.
 
Hi,

I really like the thoughtfulness of this post. But I am really curious, what niche do you feel Magcargo fulfills? I have never seen it used, nor do I really know what it would do. But if you've seen it or even used it before and can speak to this I am really interested to learn. Magcargo is one of my faves but I haven't seen it make much of a splash in any tier ever.
Glad it was helpful! Magcargo’s main niche is flame body (the only other one is magmortar which has no defensive niche), which can punish jirachi’s contact moves fairly well, has ok defenses (and sand immunity/ boosted spdef), and recover. Main problem is it’s horrendous typing other wise, sr weak, and bad stats (dreadful hp and speed). I think it can work on v specific stalls but i haven’t really found a 6 I like (basically needs to be v ho resistant bc gyara and eq are death and it’s slow as hell, spin, and preferably sand).
 

Jirachee

phoenix reborn
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Hey everyone! Here's my VR. It's meant to represent my personal biases ONLY; I don't want to show the metagame how the general public perceives it, but rather how I see it. I ranked every single Pokemon I considered using recently, so if it's not on the list, I probably won't consider it in the near future.

I also included bullet points with my observations on every ranked. Hope you enjoy!

S
#1.
Jirachi
#2.
Latias
  • First mon on the list should be no surprise. Not much to say about Jirachi, except the patented rachi moments are dumb and they happen way too often.
  • On the other hand, Latias is a real champion. It fixes all kinds of issues for all kinds of teams; it's almost unsettling how versatile it is.
    • I find that Latias is one of the biggest drivers behind the viability of Spikes offenses. They tend to struggle with defensive synergy, Latias can be thrown at anything that switches into Skarmory and makes that turn used on Spikes worth it.
    • Defensive, Specs, Scarf, Modest Lead, CM Lum, LO CM, Def CM... the possibilities are endless. If your team has no Latias, I can almost guarantee there is a Latias set out there that would make it better. It feels like there is no reason not to use Latias in DPP.
    • Latias is so good that I found myself having success with weird sets meant to surprise the opponent. I think there's a lot of value still left on table for it, don't hesitate to explore new sets.

A+
#3.
Breloom
#4.
Clefable
#5.
Skarmory
#6.
Tyranitar

  • Breloom has a set for every team and will always be at least neutral value, thanks to Spore.
    • I urge everyone to try speedy sets as they are dominant early game and require very little support.
    • Don't hesitate to attack early game and hold on to that Spore. You'll gain on multiple fronts; gaining insight on the opponent's team, and increasing your odds at making Spore truly devastating late-game.
  • Clefable is often going to wall a large part of the opponent's team, but don't hesitate to be aggressive with it!
    • It really sucks to give your opponent a free turn by having to Soft too often. I find that doubling Clefable in can really put the opponent in a bind.
  • On the other hand, Skarmory need a lot of help to work properly. Since it lets in a lot of dangerous threats, your team will need to be really sound defensively if you want to get the value out of Spikes.
    • Dual hazard Skarm offenses are the exception to this rule as you're often gonna be willing to sac it for extra layers.
  • Tyranitar is ranked the lowest out of that group as in my opinion only its DD set is truly dominant.
    • Scarf can really glue together some Stalls though. Plus bypassing Azelf as a lead can really help some matchups.
    • I personally dislike CB and Mix sets altogether. They put a heavy defensive burden on Tar's teammates because handling Pert / Fighters free to use whatever they want is a near-impossible task.
    • Obviously, Sand is good...
A
#7.
Flygon
#8.
Heatran
#9.
Metagross

  • Flygon's the complete package! Its synergistic properties, both offensive and defensive, are a godsend to balances looking to just add some raw power.
    • While mix is currently all the rage, there's still tremendous value in Scarf and less traditional sets.
  • Heatran feels a bit underexplored in the post-Lati era. It's extremely resilient while also being tough to handle. I like Taunt sets a lot
  • Metagross is a big progress maker. Trick Iron Ball is solid but so are Custap and Pursuit variants.
    • To me Metagross feels extremely customizable. When I game plan on offense it's often key to getting a crucial KO early game that'll give me a good shot at the win.
A-
#10.
Gyarados
#11.
Swampert
#12.
Lucario
#13.
Rotom-a

  • While Gyarados is brilliant offensively, it forces your team to win quickly, because it's certainly not going to stick around.
    • I have found most of my success with Gyarados on teams led by itself, or by Azelf. Getting that rocks-free initial switch-in is the extra edge it needs to dominate.
  • Swampert is great at getting SR up and its offensive sets are really tough to handle.
    • Don't sleep on good ol' DefPert either. Roar can be super clutch.
    • This is one of the dudes that need Latias the most.
  • Lucario is more than just Scarf Copycat. While that set is really strong, I've found that an aggressively played SD LO Luc can wreak havoc on most teams. The trick is to play it like a wallbreaker early on and give up the chance to sweep late if it means grabbing an early KO.
  • Rotom can fix many issues and makes Rapid Spin futile. Its strengths and flaws are known. I'll add that Ghost STAB is actually really good if you can shoo Tyranitar away though.
    • Try out Sucker Punch, it's not bad at all!
B+
#14.
Dragonite
#15.
Magnezone
#16.
Gliscor
#17.
Hippowdon
#18.
Azelf

  • Dragonite you never like facing. It's hard to get it right in the builder though. DD sets feel like going for a 40 yard bomb, while Mix sets require an absurd team pace.
  • Ah, Magnezone. Hated by some, loved by others. As a member of #teamzone I am obligated to rank it highly.
    • Having a Knock Off user might feel mandatory for Zone teams, but luckily they go hand in hand like peanut butter and jelly.
    • Trick users can help against Shed Skarm too (Metagross!)
    • Zone also has pretty good value as a standalone Pokemon, which is why I like Flash Cannon on it so much. Elec + Steel + Ground / Fire is weird coverage that some teams will just lose to.
    • The ability to trap itself and Heatran is also very very good. Zone is a lot more than just a trapskarmbot. Lots of ways to use it creatively.
  • Gliscor is versatile and reliable. A delight to use but sometimes can feel like its potential is capped due to the 4x Ice weakness and poor coverage.
  • Hippowdon is the best physical wall in the game. Many (bad) teams will just straight up lose to it.
  • Azelf is a personal favorite of mine. Don't want to say much because its secret will be key in future tournament games.
B
#19.
Gengar
#20.
Starmie

  • The main issue I have with Gengar is that it compounds a lot of the weaknesses Latias has. This makes it hard to justify it a spot on many teams, since you usually want to use Latias more than Gengar.
    • Wisp and Focus Blast also have completely worthless accuracy. It's hard to be excited about using Gengar when you know you're really just playing the lottery.
  • Starmie gets a spot this high because it's the only "real" spinner in the tier. Some games can really be taken over by that early spin.

B-
#21.
Zapdos
#22.
Machamp
#23.
Bronzong

  • Zapdos plays a purely supportive role in this metagame, as U-turn is its best move.
    • I very much dislike the defensive sets because it's so hard to spin.
    • The offensive sets can give up a lot of momentum to Latias and Clefable.
    • HP Grass and 4 attacks sets are underrated though.
  • Champ is really good as a follow-up to Azelf. Wouldn't really recommend it on a different kind of team though.
    • It's one of the best battering rams in the game. Unless you use Slowbro, it's gonna be really tough to stop it from making progress.
    • Champ requires fast team pace and shrewd playing. Not a mon for beginners at all.
  • I personally quite enjoy Bronzong's simple defensive sets on balance teams. They do their job well and can boom on key targets pretty reliably.
    • Requires urgent assistance against Skarmory though. Consider stacking up on Spikes immunes.
C+
#24.
Empoleon
#25.
Suicune
#26.
Scizor
#27.
Quagsire
#28.
Blissey

  • I like Sub Agility Empoleon a lot. It's a terrifying game-ender that'll lead to challenging endgames.
    • Bulky sets are okay too but often play like a budget Heatran with a different set of resists.
  • Suicune's offensive sets are still pretty dangerous to offense. But really miss the mark against Stall.
  • Scizor is really hard to harness in the builder. It doesn't really offer much to your team despite its great typing. I'll concede that DDTar protection is quite nice.
  • Quagsire is super unique, not much to say, other than it being good.
  • Blissey has a HUGE niche of being able to switch into Specs Latias early, which obvious Clefable could never do. You really need to make use of that niche to make Blissey worth though.
    • I recommend using Blissey with an aggressive lead like Gyarados to really get the most out of it.
C
#29.
Kingdra
#30.
Uxie
#31.
Nidoqueen
#32.
Infernape
#33.
Milotic
#34.
Roserade

  • While its standalone sets have seen better days, Kingdra is still the main fear factor behind Rain teams.
    • I tried DD sets again recently, they're VERY inconsistent. The highs make me think there's potential there though.
  • Uxie is a fine lead. It's never gonna be bad or great. Kind of an afterthought mon
  • Unfortunately for Nidoqueen the viability of Toxic Spikes themselves are ever-falling. It's a collateral victim of focus being placed on Steel types and Spikes immunes.
    • Defensively it still offers unique synergy. Make sure to consider it when building a stall team.
  • Infernape is another collateral victim for The War On Passive Damage. There are still some offenses it does well against though, being Latias often opts for slower spreads.
    • Many people are trying their hardest to make Ape work but I think it's kind of futile. The issues with this dude are inherent to every set; switching out carries too heavy a cost, and it's not really built to be a kill all game ending machine à la Dragonite.
  • A more polarizing Pokemon is Milotic. To me it falls in the "annoying to play against, sucks to use" bin. Rolling into a stall matchup with this is... inconvenient.
    • Don't get me wrong, Milotic is excellent against some offenses, but you'll need to build your teams with the assumption you'll often be down a Pokemon from turn 1 which is pretty constraining.
  • Roserade faces the conundrum of being a Spiker that sucks in long games. With pure Stall teams being more common than ever, it's kind of bad trait to have.
C-
#35.
Gastrodon
#36.
Mamoswine
#37.
Forretress
#38.
Togekiss

  • Being immune to Knock Off is awesome! Gastrodon's an interesting niche 'mon.
    • Make sure to provide it with proper support, namely anti-Spikes and proper status protection. You'll also need to be able to fend off Breloom.
  • Mamoswine can definitely threaten some teams. It's ironically one of the best at supporting Zone with that Knock Off.
  • It's hard for me to stop that reaction of disgust when I see Forry but... there are some teams it just ends.
  • Togekiss has pretty unique typing and is very annoying. Been the same ol' for 15 years or whatever.
D+
#39.
Abomasnow
#40.
Raikou
#41.
Qwilfish
#42.
Aerodactyl
#43.
Gallade
#44.
Tentacruel

  • Hail teams, meet Clefable, Tyranitar, etc...
    • Abomasnow's a pretty interesting standalone dude though. Ice Shard is an incredible move, and Ice + Grass coverage is unique. Plus Hail cutting Jirachi's lefties makes it... manageable?
  • I thought Christo's Raikou lead from SPL was interesting, but the truth is that I don't really see Kou fitting anywhere else.
  • Qwilfish is a good secondary sweeper for Rain teams, but the truth is that their viability is 100% tied to Kingdra.
  • Aero is the current flavor of the month but I'm not sure it'll last. There's not much it does over Azelf other than outspeeding ScarfTar and who knows how long SR ScarfTar lead is gonna last.
  • The combinated threats of Will-O-Wisp and Close Combat makes Gallade viable. It's actually pretty dangerous as a lead. Too bad it can't switch into anything
  • The metagame is very unkind to Tentacruel. A spinner that is quickly worn down by Spikes + Sand and cannot recover its health is inherently flawed.
    • On top of that, Toxic Spikes are at an all-time low. Poor Tenta.
D
#45.
Donphan
#46.
Cresselia
#47.
Froslass
#48.
Azumarill
#49.
Ludicolo

  • Donphan is best treated as a defensive Pokemon that can sometimes spin. It can't consistently keep hazards off, but having that option can sometimes win games.
  • Whenever you see Cress you know you're being cheesed...
    • The mon itself is fine, but doesn't fit on any team made by reasonable humans.
    • It's a FIRE TR setter though. Max Def Bold can tank any attack in the game and Lunar Dance is clutch AF.
  • Lass offenses can be decent. As long as you get that early Spike I think you can say it's job done for Lass, but I'm not sure it's always worth.
    • Faces heavy competition from Skarmory which can easily just switch out and waltz back in later if it really needs to. Plus Skarm can also carry Stealth Rock.
    • If you use Lass, I think you really want to lean on that ability to Taunt early and use smth like a MixNite that can follow up nicely and be pretty much uncounterable with a layer up.
  • Azumarill's really good on TR!! Try it out!!!
  • Another Rain sweeper, but this one is optional. I don't think Ludicolo has anything over Kingdra, but stacking up on swift swimmers can be devastating. It's probably the best "second Kingdra" so it gets ranked.
D-
#50.
Celebi
#51.
Smeargle
#52.
Heracross
#53.
Magneton
#54.
Camerupt
#55.
Claydol

  • Celebi is really, really bad. I struggle to find a reason to use it over GodTias which is presumably what you'd want to do with it.
    • Spikes weakness makes the whole difference.
    • Natural Cure can even play at a disadvantage since you'd naturally want to counter Breloom.
    • The inability to Baton Pass boosts really just kills the whole charm. For the best obviously.
    • Maybe someone can make an offensive set worth using though.
  • I placed Smeargle here mostly as a hypothetical. It's always got a world's worth of possibilities, but I haven't seen any good Smeargle stuff lately.
  • Scarf Heracross doesn't sound terrible, but Bug STAB is really bad to lock into.
  • Magneton is certainly Viable but Magnezone is just better on 99% of teams.
    • If I ever play Pideous I'm loading Jolly Gyarados
  • I don't really rate Camerupt personally but the defensive synergy can make some teams tick.
  • If you like Claydol go play ADV. This mon is awful.
 
Muk has a lot of neat traits. It's got great hp and good special defense and attack, can clear toxic spikes, has a wide movepool with good coverage (as well as curse to act as a wincon), and sticky hold means that it can't have it's leftovers/black sludge knocked off by clefable, letting it act as a good check to clef. Its definitely ass and needs a lot of support (like weather clearing, magnezone and maybe a cleric as well) but it's got a legit niche and is worth using on some teams. Curse Rest + two attacks is probably it's best set. Excal has done a lot of theorymonning with it and has had some success with it
 

vapicuno

你的价值比自己想象中的所有还要低。我却早已解脱,享受幸福
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Afternote: This post has johnnyg2 and Jirachee's contributions omitted. See the post below for more accurate VRs. Results of the analyses are largely the same.

Hi everyone,

I have worked with Emeral on this year's VR update as per last year. Again, this update will be based on an extension of my original methodology described here, taking inspiration from a previous post by Jorgen. Thanks to Kristyl M Dragon Sakito McMeghan BIHI Excal Pideous ABR oiponabys Tomahawk Christo Le Don SFG Emeral for your rankings. The raw data is in the zip file, but I suppose Emeral might post or edit into this post an online spreadsheet for your convenience.

Okay, TLDR stuff first:
The average outlier-compensated ranks from everyone are
01 Jirachi
02 Tyranitar
03 Latias
04 Clefable
05 Skarmory
06 Flygon
07 Breloom
08 Heatran
09 Metagross
10 Rotom
11 Gyarados
12 Gengar
13 Swampert
14 Lucario
15 Gliscor
16 Dragonite
17 Magnezone
18 Empoleon
19 Zapdos
20 Hippowdon
21 Azelf
22 Bronzong
23 Starmie
24 Suicune
25 Quagsire
26 Machamp
27 Roserade
28 Scizor
29 Forretress
30 Blissey
31 Kingdra
32 Infernape
33 Milotic
34 Magneton
35 Nidoqueen
36 Mamoswine
37 Celebi
38 Aerodactyl
39 Uxie
40 Gastrodon
41 Froslass
42 Donphan
43 Ludicolo
44 Qwilfish
45 Camerupt
46 Abomasnow
47 Raikou
48 Gallade
49 Togekiss
50 Shaymin
51 Cresselia
52 Heracross
53 Rhyperior
54 Tentacruel
55 Slowbro
56 Moltres
57 Vaporeon
58 Hitmontop
59 Slowking
60 Weavile
61 Crobat
62 Claydol
63 Smeargle
64 Mesprit
65 Kabutops
66 Jolteon
67 Venusaur
68 Exeggutor
69 Dusknoir
70 Snorlax
71 Victreebell
72 Porygon-2
73 Registeel
74 Porygon-Z
75 Feraligatr
76 Alakazam
77 Omastar
78 Yanmega
79 Aggron
80 Umbreon
81 Walrein
82 Torterra
83 Toxicroak
84 Ambipom
85 Magcargo
86 Muk
87 Staraptor
88 Sceptile
89 Cradily
90 Hariyama
91 Steelix
92 Probopass
93 Wailord
94 Nidoking
95 Spiritomb
96 Azumarill
97 Ariados
Removing Pokemon that are ranked by less than 4 voters yields
01 Jirachi
02 Tyranitar
03 Latias
04 Clefable
05 Skarmory
06 Flygon
07 Breloom
08 Heatran
09 Metagross
10 Rotom
11 Gyarados
12 Gengar
13 Swampert
14 Lucario
15 Gliscor
16 Dragonite
17 Magnezone
18 Empoleon
19 Zapdos
20 Hippowdon
21 Azelf
22 Bronzong
23 Starmie
24 Suicune
25 Quagsire
26 Machamp
27 Roserade
28 Scizor
29 Forretress
30 Blissey
31 Kingdra
32 Infernape
33 Milotic
34 Magneton
35 Nidoqueen
36 Mamoswine
37 Celebi
38 Aerodactyl
39 Uxie
40 Gastrodon
41 Froslass
42 Donphan
43 Ludicolo
44 Qwilfish
45 Camerupt
46 Abomasnow
47 Raikou
48 Gallade
49 Togekiss
50 Shaymin
51 Cresselia
52 Heracross
53 Rhyperior
54 Tentacruel
55 Slowbro
56 Moltres
57 Vaporeon
58 Hitmontop
59 Slowking
60 Weavile
61 Crobat
62 Claydol
63 Smeargle
64 Mesprit
65 Kabutops
66 Jolteon
67 Venusaur
68 Exeggutor
69 Dusknoir
70 Snorlax
71 Victreebell
72 Porygon-2
73 Porygon-Z
74 Feraligatr
75 Alakazam
76 Yanmega
77 Aggron
78 Umbreon
79 Walrein
80 Muk
81 Staraptor
82 Steelix
83 Probopass
84 Spiritomb
85 Azumarill

The aggregate VR tiers obtained are
S1: :Jirachi:
S2: :Tyranitar::Latias:
S3: :Clefable::Skarmory:
A1: :Flygon::Breloom:
A2: :Heatran::Metagross::Rotom::Gyarados::Gengar::Swampert:
A3: :Lucario::Gliscor::Dragonite:
B1: :Magnezone::Empoleon::Zapdos:
B2: :Hippowdon::Azelf::Bronzong::Starmie:
C1: :Suicune::Quagsire::Machamp::Roserade:
C2: :Scizor::Forretress::Blissey::Kingdra::Infernape:
D1: :Milotic::Magneton::Nidoqueen::Mamoswine::Celebi::Aerodactyl::Uxie::Gastrodon::Froslass::Donphan::Ludicolo::Qwilfish::Camerupt::Abomasnow::Raikou::Gallade::Togekiss:
D2: :Shaymin::Cresselia::Heracross::Rhyperior::Tentacruel::Slowbro:
E:
:Moltres::Vaporeon::Hitmontop::Slowking::Weavile::Crobat::Claydol::Smeargle::Mesprit::Kabutops::Jolteon::Venusaur::Exeggutor::Dusknoir::Snorlax::Victreebel::Porygon2::Porygon-Z::Feraligatr::Alakazam::Yanmega::Aggron::Umbreon::Walrein::Muk::Staraptor::Steelix::Probopass::Spiritomb::Azumarill:

Let's go through the whole process.

First the data is cleaned by compensating outliers 1 standard deviation away from the edge of the percentiles expected to contain +/- 1 standard deviation of a normal distribution. This is a modification of the conventional interquartile range (IQR), which I have not chosen to use because 50% of the sample doesn't capture the full variation from what I've seen. The compensation is done by bringing these points to the edge of this extended range. This results in mostly zero, but sometimes one or two outlier corrections. We then plot the outlier-removed data as a function of the integer rank to obtain this graph.

VR Tiering Decisions
2022_DPP_OU_VR_Full.png
and we can zoom in to the top 35 mons where tiering decisions are expected to make more sense,
2022_DPP_OU_VR.png

We use hierarchical clustering to help obtain the tiers. We form a dissimilarity matrix where the distances between Pokemon X and Y are given by the following: Take the rate at which voters ranked Pokemon X over Pokemon Y, take the logit transform as is done in logistic regression of a Bernoulli-distributed variable, and take the absolute value. Performing what we call a Ward linkage, this yields a dendrogram of the following sort, where the clusters (what we are going to call tiers) formed by setting a reasonable threshold are represented by different colors, and the dissimilarity between each cluster can be thought of as the vertical height of the nearest branch that connects the two clusters.

For example, the Flygon-Breloom tier is a lot closer to the Swampert-Gyarados tier (connecting height 10, note the log scale) than the Clefable-Skarmory tier (connecting height 20). This justifies placing Flygon-Breloom within the same tier as Swampert-Gyarados as opposed to Clefable-Skarmory. Note that the order is not preserved by the algorithm, and hierarchical clustering throws away information, so this is just a rough guide to defining the tiers.

2022_DPP_OU_VR_Dendrogram.png


Nominally, we can obtain the VR tiers by setting a threshold (Ward Distance ~14) below which we consider everything to be a tier, and another threshold (Ward Distance ~6) below which we consider different branches to be subtiers. The tier divisions should be checked for the distinguishability conditions laid out in my methodology post; the main discrepancy is that the ranking plot shows that Jirachi is almost unanimously ranked #1 even though the thresholds place it in the same subtier as Tyranitar and Latias. Thus, we will assign Jirachi to its own subtier S1. The other discrepancy is such that the distinguishability conditions in the ranking plot mandate that Jirachi, Tyranitar-Latias, Clefable-Skarmory, and Flygon-Breloom form their own tiers S, A, B, C, though it would violate conventional impressions of viability to do so. Thus, we stick to the dendrogram-generated tiers for this.

To visualize the clusters obtained from the dendrogram, we next plot the dissimilarity matrix and draw out the tiers specified.

To read the dissimilarity matrix, note that zero (the darkest value) corresponds to equal number of people voting in favor and against the Pokemon on the Y axis > X axis, and the higher the value, the more one-sided the voting becomes. In other words, the darker, the more indistinguishable the Pokemon on the X and Y axis become, and a well-defined tier would be a fully dark square (read my methodology thread for explanations).
2022_DPP_OU_VR_Dissimilarity.png

This yields the following subdivision,

S1: :Jirachi:
S2: :Tyranitar::Latias:
S3: :Clefable::Skarmory:
A1: :Flygon::Breloom:
A2: :Heatran::Metagross::Rotom::Gyarados::Gengar::Swampert:
A3: :Lucario::Gliscor::Dragonite:
B1: :Magnezone::Empoleon::Zapdos:
B2: :Hippowdon::Azelf::Bronzong::Starmie:
C1: :Suicune::Quagsire::Machamp::Roserade:
C2: :Scizor::Forretress::Blissey::Kingdra::Infernape:
D1: :Milotic::Magneton::Nidoqueen::Mamoswine::Celebi::Aerodactyl::Uxie::Gastrodon::Froslass::Donphan::Ludicolo::Qwilfish::Camerupt::Abomasnow::Raikou::Gallade::Togekiss:
D2: :Shaymin::Cresselia::Heracross::Rhyperior::Tentacruel::Slowbro:
E:
:Moltres::Vaporeon::Hitmontop::Slowking::Weavile::Crobat::Claydol::Smeargle::Mesprit::Kabutops::Jolteon::Venusaur::Exeggutor::Dusknoir::Snorlax::Victreebel::Porygon2::Porygon-Z::Feraligatr::Alakazam::Yanmega::Aggron::Umbreon::Walrein::Muk::Staraptor::Steelix::Probopass::Spiritomb::Azumarill:

Numerical ranks represent partial tiers, whereas letter ranks represent a more complete separation. As explained in my methodology thread, I choose to adopt numerical subranks because there is no reason a priori to believe that Pokemon are grouped in viability by a tripartite scheme of +/-.

Metagame Shifts

I would usually be able to compare rankings across different VR editions, but this is the first time we're doing this for DPP.

Analysis of Camps

I tried to look out for divided opinions in different groups of subtiers. I clustered voters based on their rankings of Pokemon within the selected tiers, then extrapolated to find patterns in the rest of the OU Pokemon. This lets you observe how a camp's preferences within some group of higher ranked mons bleed into the lower ranked mons, and vice versa.

S to A1: Clefable/Skarmory, Flygon/Breloom Split

2022_DPP_OU_VR_S_to_A1_Dendrogram.png
From the Dendrogram, we identify a camp from M Dragon-ABR, and from Tomahawk-BIHI. In this case, I do not find the average ranks to be as telling as the dissimilarity matrix, so I will explain my observations when we get there. Nevertheless, we can plot the mean rankings of each Pokemon for the two camps,
2022_DPP_OU_VR_S_to_A1_Relative_Rank.png
Note again the error bars are uncertainties in means, not the actual deviations (ie divided by sqrt(N-1)). Looking at M Dragon's camp for reference, and using the z-score to see the most significant changes, we obtain the following bar chart. We see that the M Dragon camp has general preferences for Tyranitar, Skarmory, Breloom, Heatran, Swampert, Starmie, and Roserade, while Tomahawk's camp has general preferences for Latias, CLefable, Flygon, Gengar, Lucario, Gliscor, Bronzong, and Forretress.
2022_DPP_OU_VR_S_to_A1_Relative_Rank_z_Score.png
2022_DPP_OU_VR_S_to_A1_Relative_Rank_z_Score_ranked.png
Average ranks are simple to read but don't answer the question, "the M Dragon camp likes Breloom, but in comparison to what?".

The dissimilarity matrix helps us to compare any two Pokemon, giving us a more complete picture. To read it, note that when you see a strongly red square, then the camp being analyzed frequently ranks the corresponding Pokemon on the Y axis more favorably than that on the X axis. Another way to see this is by looking across the diagonal line. A strongly red square should be accompanied by a strongly blue square reflected across the line, and we can say the camp prefers the Pokemon on the Y axis of the red square more than that of the blue square. For example, in the data below, the M Dragon camp prefers Tyranitar to Latias.

The defining features of the M Dragon camp are
  1. Within the subtiers analyzed (S-A1),
    1. Strong preference for Skarmory > Clefable
    2. Strong preference for Breloom > Flygon
    3. Moderate preference of Tyranitar > Latias
  2. Outside the subtiers analyzed,
    1. Strong preference for Heatran, especially > Gengar
    2. Moderate preference for Swampert, especially > Lucario and Gengar
    3. Moderate preference for Starmie, especially > Zapdos
    4. Strong preference for Roserade, especially > Bronzong,
2022_DPP_OU_VR_S_to_A1_Dissimilarity.png


A2 to A3: Gengar/Swampert, Heatran Split
2022_DPP_OU_VR_A2_to_A3_Dendrogram.png
From the Dendrogram, we identify a camp from Oipon-Pideous, and from Sakito-SFG. In this case, I find the mean rankings and resulting z-scores to provide sufficient information, i.e. most differences are broad ranking changes rather than specific Pokemon pair comparisons.
2022_DPP_OU_VR_A2_to_A3_Relative_Rank.png
The defining observation from the z-scores is that the Oipon camp strongly prefers Gengar while the Sakito camp strongly prefers Swampert. To a lesser extent, the Sakito camp also prefers Heatran. The dissimilarity matrix also demonstrates that the Oipon camp favors Flygon to Breloom.

2022_DPP_OU_VR_A2_to_A3_Relative_Rank_z_Score.png

2022_DPP_OU_VR_A2_to_A3_Relative_Rank_z_Score_ranked.png
2022_DPP_OU_VR_A2_to_A3_Dissimilarity.png

B1 to B2: Azelf/Zapdos Split
2022_DPP_OU_VR_B1_to_B2_Dendrogram.png
From the Dendrogram, we identify a camp from Le Don-Oipon, and from Pideous-Emeral. As with S-A1, I do not find the average ranks to be as telling as the dissimilarity matrix, so I will explain my observations when we get there. Making the same series of plots again,
2022_DPP_OU_VR_B1_to_B2_Relative_Rank.png
2022_DPP_OU_VR_B1_to_B2_Relative_Rank_z_Score.png
2022_DPP_OU_VR_B1_to_B2_Relative_Rank_z_Score_ranked.png
Based on the dissimilarity matrix, the defining features of the Le Don camp are
  1. Within the subtiers analyzed (B1-B2),
    1. Strong preference for Azelf, especially > Zapdos
    2. Strong preference for Hippowdon > Zapdos
    3. Strong preference of Azelf and Hippowdon > Bronzong and Starmie
    4. Moderate preference of Magnezone > Zapdos
  2. Outside the subtiers analyzed,
    1. Broad dislike for Gliscor, especially < Lucario, Gyarados, and Rotom
    2. Moderate preference for Blissey > Suicune and Starmie
    3. Moderate preference for Infernape > Roserade and Scizor
2022_DPP_OU_VR_B1_to_B2_Dissimilarity.png


As I don't play this tier, I invite you to comment based on your metagame knowledge what you think these different camps of opinions mean.

Individual Analyses

For those who are interested to see whose S to C rankings are closest to theirs, you can refer to the chart below. The numbers inside the box go from -100% (full anticorrelation) to 100% (full correlation). They are sorted by the S to C dendrogram order (and the light squares represent the camps).
2022_DPP_OU_VR_Correlation.png
And finally, these are the relative ranks of everyone. Blue = disfavor, Red = favor. Cyan lines demarcate tier cutoffs.
2022_DPP_OU_VR_Individual_Rankings.png

Closing Remarks

The large number of graphs may seem daunting, and to people who aren't quantitatively trained, this may be really confusing. I recommend just glancing over the spoilers on the first read, only thoroughly analyzing them after you've gone through the more important graphs that have been left unhidden. I'm interested to know what you can infer from these trends even though I don't play the metagame, and I hope this can generate some discussion.

Finally, I have attached the Jupyter notebook for this in a zip file. You'll need python and the associated packages to open and run it, and the easiest way to do that is to install the anaconda library here.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

vapicuno

你的价值比自己想象中的所有还要低。我却早已解脱,享受幸福
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion
It has come to my attention that some submissions were left out. If your submission was not included and you are eligible, please DM me by Saturday 9th July 2359h EST.

I can provide a new set of visuals and see if there are notable changes, even if I cannot necessarily promise to do a written analysis again as that would be time consuming.
 
Last edited:

Pideous

World Defender
Thanks for including me in the vr update, here's an overview of the vr I submitted.

dpp-vr-june.png


:Latias:
Makes it into my top spot thanks to a unique defensive profile alongside excellent hazard resilience and abuse. Defensive sets have a wide variety of options to pose a threat in drawn out games while benefiting from naturally high speed against offensive threats. Offensive Latias sets are also excellent, and this mon usually doesn’t face much competition for a team slot.

:Jirachi:
Super versatile, and still dominant. Faces some competition for a team slot from a variety of excellent steel types, which is the main reason it comes second.

:Tyranitar:
Scarf provides great Gengar counterplay and speed control for defensive teams, while dd
is consistently threatening. Sash leads might be underexplored, and I’m not a fan of CB.

:Clefable:
Clefable is just really good at outlasting the opponent. Knock is great, spdef encore is death for cm stuff, it makes a competent stealth rocker, thunder wave is great, physdef lives everything ever, etc.

:Skarmory:
Demands a huge level of respect from spike weak offences in the builder to limit it as much as possible. Remains consistent regardless with a great defensive profile and the huge pressure spikes apply, fantastic pokemon.

:Gengar:
I have Gengar really high, I think it’s one of the biggest offensive threats in the tier. There are lots of tools available to gengar teams to toy with ScarfTar, and aside from that there isn’t a great deal of defensive counterplay to this mon. It brings useful speed, resistances and immunities to a team and is only really held back by the shitty accuracy of blast and wisp.

:Flygon:
Mix Gon is strong, fast, and resilient, a clear top threat. I really like physical sets, especially Scarf. It’s fantastic alongside Magnezone in particular.

:Breloom:
Spore has huge value, focus punch is strong as fuck, pheal lets it stick around, mach is great, it’s no surprise that loom ranks this high. As strong as the standard options are, Loom can get a lot of mileage out of a moveslot or item change here or there, like Sash leads or stun spore to cripple answers like Gengar, Latias, Gliscor etc.

:Metagross:
Scarf, Lefties and Iron Ball are all great sets. Metagross has great defensive value and a huge threat level, backed by the power of boom. Meteor mash can be pretty stupid with some swingy outcomes depending on missing/ attack raising.

:Heatran:
Really appreciates the longevity of Leftovers but I have a hard time fitting it on most teams. Giving up momentum to mix Gon can be a real pain, and sets like Shuca or endure Custap mitigate that issue nicely. Dropping Leftovers makes it a less sturdy Jirachi answer, but on the bright side I feel a lot better about exploding on Latias, which can really open the way for something like Breloom.

:Magnezone:
I’m a big fan of Zone, although the presence of shed Skarm is a bit awkward. I tend to lean towards stacking spike immunities alongside Magnezone, as it really doesn’t feel like a consistent form of hazard control. It’s useful to limit various steels while also being a tool to break through Skarm, especially with knock off support.

:Gliscor:
Impeccable synergy with ScarfTar, Gliscor can otherwise give away many turns to threats like Gengar, Latias and Starmie. Sand is of course appreciated as well. I find it doesn’t fit very well on many teams, but when it does find a home it proves consistently excellent.

:Gyarados:
Great defensive utility on fast paced teams, extremely threatening, and the bs potential of waterfall is very high.

:Lucario:
Scarf sets get a lot of attention, but I favour SD overall. A dangerous sweeper/ breaker, forming a game plan around a Lucario sweep is still a very effective approach to building offence imo.

:Dragonite:
Despite good bulk and resistances, Dragonite is one of the biggest glass cannons in the tier. Extremely susceptible to hazards and sand, and frequently making use of the borderline suicidal outrage to break teams open. As a result, it can be tough to build a “solid” dragonite team, but it offers more raw power than anything else in the tier.

:Rotom:
A little bit lower in my mind than it used to be, Scarf thunderbolt is harder to click in a mix Gon meta and rest is somewhat exploitable recovery, especially on a mon that doesn’t otherwise gain health in sand. Still a reliable pokemon, I just find Gengar a much more exciting option.

:Magneton:
I think a tier below Magnezone feels right for this mon but I can see why many are willing to leave it in the dumpster, Zone is generally the better option. I think Scarf Magneton has enough upside over ScarfZone to warrant a place on some teams, and discount Magnezone is still pretty good.

:Bronzong:
Gyro ball and explosion make Bronzong one of the most actively threatening defensive pokemon in the tier. Faces a lot of competition from Metagross, Jirachi and Skarmory but remains a consistent option.

:Swampert:
Gets good opportunities against top mons like Tyranitar and Jirachi to come in and cause some damage. Needs a solid game plan for spikes, as well as pokemon like Breloom and Gyarados. Tank Pert is nice.

:Zapdos:
Good at u-turning on Clefable, Latias and Tyranitar. Can also pressure stall Clefable quite well. Defensive value is somewhat hampered by rocks and sand, and spinning for it rarely seems worth the effort.

:Starmie:
I’ve come to respect offensive Starmie quite a bit. Even without great longevity, spin is powerful against defensive teams which struggle to get hazards up against offence to begin with, while the speed and coverage is of course great against other offences. I’m not a big fan of bulky sets.

:Hippowdon:
Early rocks and sand have great value. Stops being a mix Gon answer when spikes go down, so the physical walling capabilities it offers are usually more desirable.

:Empoleon:
Offensive sets are good. I like spdef Emp, it has great synergy with a lot of top threats. Access to knock off, and the ability to easily lure Clefable makes it an ideal mix Gon partner. Pairs well with physdef Clef to answer threats like Heatran or Suicune.

:Azelf:
Very good lead. Gets rocks up, sometimes prevents them from the opponent, threatens afterwards with status and explosion. Probably a bit underrated on my vr tbh.

:Scizor:
I don’t really use bulky sd, but I like offensive sd quite a bit. The stronger bullet punch sets it apart from Lucario by allowing it to check dd Tar.

:Machamp:
Comparisons to Breloom are generally unfavourable, but Machamp is still a powerful option. Rest talk might be neat.

:Forretress:
Spikes are good, boom is good, spinning against stalls that drop Mag/ rest talk Rotom is nice.

:Quagsire:
Useful defensive movepool, Gyarados answer that can’t be flinched down.

:Suicune:
Great into offence, threatening into most calm mind Clefable teams. Somewhat lacklustre into a lot of defensive teams.

:Blissey:
Free entry on a wide range of special attackers to get rocks up quickly. Not a great fit on defensive teams, Clefable outshines it in long games.

:Roserade:
Spikes are powerful, although it’s hard to find reasons to use Roserade over Skarmory in this role. I personally don’t favour this mon at all but I respect it enough to put it in B.

:Kingdra:
RD Kingdra is a respectable independent rain threat with solid team support utility in weather clearing, which makes offensive pokemon like Zapdos, Gengar and Breloom much more resilient. I don’t like dedicated rain teams.

:Aerodactyl:
Decent alternative to Azelf with some extra speed at the cost of explosion.

:Infernape:
Mach punch is a useful tool to keep sd Lucario and dd Tar in check and u-turning on Latias is great. Its flaws are well known.

:Nidoqueen:
It’s hard to fit a bulky ground that doesn’t answer dd Tar, and toxic spikes don’t bring enough value to make it the most reliable option.

:Milotic:
Crowded competition for a slot, and very vulnerable to passive damage for a defensive pokemon.

:Gastrodon:
Worse into most offensive threats than Quagsire and Milotic, although sticky hold is a useful ability.

:Gallade:
Decent typing and bulk with some dangerous offensive weapons, struggles a bit to stand out from the fighter crowd.

:Camerupt:
Generally worse than Heatran, but with a useful electric immunity.

C+/ C
Usable, but underwhelming.
 

vapicuno

你的价值比自己想象中的所有还要低。我却早已解脱,享受幸福
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion
After accounting for johnnyg2 and Jirachee 's missing submissions, we have the following VR tiers

S1: :Jirachi:
S2: :Tyranitar::Latias:
S3: :Clefable::Skarmory:
A1: :Flygon::Breloom:
A2: :Heatran::Metagross::Gyarados::Rotom:
A3: :Gengar::Swampert::Lucario::Gliscor::Dragonite:
B1: :Magnezone::Empoleon::Zapdos:
B2: :Hippowdon::Azelf::Bronzong::Starmie:
C1: :Suicune::Quagsire::Machamp::Scizor::Roserade:
C2: :Forretress::Blissey::Kingdra::Infernape:
D1: :Milotic::Nidoqueen::Mamoswine::Magneton::Uxie::Celebi::Aerodactyl::Gastrodon::Donphan::Qwilfish::Froslass::Ludicolo::Camerupt::Raikou::Abomasnow::Gallade::Togekiss:
D2: :Shaymin::Cresselia::Heracross::Tentacruel::Rhyperior::Slowbro:
E: :Moltres::Weavile::Claydol::Vaporeon::Hitmontop::Mesprit::Venusaur::Smeargle::Crobat::Kabutops::Slowking::Jolteon::Exeggutor::Dusknoir::Porygon2::Victreebel::Snorlax::Feraligatr::Aggron::Alakazam::Yanmega::Umbreon::Walrein::Azumarill::Muk::Staraptor::Probopass::Steelix:

Gengar and Swampert are shifted from A2 to A3, and Scizor is brought up from C2 to C1. As expected, there are no changes in tiers, only shifts in the subtiers within the OU mons. There are some changes in D and E as well.

01 Jirachi
02 Tyranitar
03 Latias
04 Clefable
05 Skarmory
06 Flygon
07 Breloom
08 Heatran
09 Metagross
10 Gyarados
11 Rotom
12 Gengar
13 Swampert
14 Lucario
15 Gliscor
16 Dragonite
17 Magnezone
18 Empoleon
19 Zapdos
20 Hippowdon
21 Azelf
22 Bronzong
23 Starmie
24 Suicune
25 Quagsire
26 Machamp
27 Scizor
28 Roserade
29 Forretress
30 Blissey
31 Kingdra
32 Infernape
33 Milotic
34 Nidoqueen
35 Mamoswine
36 Magneton
37 Uxie
38 Celebi
39 Aerodactyl
40 Gastrodon
41 Donphan
42 Qwilfish
43 Froslass
44 Ludicolo
45 Camerupt
46 Raikou
47 Abomasnow
48 Gallade
49 Togekiss
50 Shaymin
51 Cresselia
52 Heracross
53 Tentacruel
54 Rhyperior
55 Slowbro
56 Moltres
57 Weavile
58 Claydol
59 Vaporeon
60 Hitmontop
61 Mesprit
62 Venusaur
63 Smeargle
64 Crobat
65 Kabutops
66 Slowking
67 Jolteon
68 Exeggutor
69 Dusknoir
70 Porygon-2
71 Victreebell
72 Snorlax
73 Feraligatr
74 Porygon-Z
75 Aggron
76 Alakazam
77 Yanmega
78 Umbreon
79 Walrein
80 Omastar
81 Registeel
82 Azumarill
83 Cradily
84 Magcargo
85 Muk
86 Staraptor
87 Probopass
88 Steelix
89 Spiritomb
2022_DPP_OU_VR_Dendrogram_v2.png
2022_DPP_OU_VR_Dissimilarity_v2.png
2022_DPP_OU_VR_v2.png
2022_DPP_OU_VR_Full_v2.png
In S-A1, johnnyg2 joins the pro-Skarm/Breloom group, and Jirachee is just off the charts for ranking Tyranitar massively low.
2022_DPP_OU_VR_S_to_A1_Dendrogram_v2.png
In A2-A3, johnnyg2 joins the pro-Gengar camp, Jirachee joins the pro-Swampert camp.
2022_DPP_OU_VR_A2_to_A3_Dendrogram_v2.png
In B1-B2, johnnyg2 joins the pro-Zapdos group, and Jirachee joins the pro-Azelf group.
2022_DPP_OU_VR_B1_to_B2_Dendrogram_v2.png
2022_DPP_OU_VR_Correlation_v2.png
 

Emeral

toward new horizons
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
The first post has been updated with the new VR.

The time for an update has come! Huge thanks to vapicuno for the data analysis and the visuals.

From what the VR can tell us, here is a little summary:
--------------
Big 5
**staples**

:Jirachi::Tyranitar::Latias::Clefable::Skarmory:
define the metagame / best at what they are doing
--------------
Breloom + Flygon

**the brokens**

:Flygon::Breloom:
usually hard to account for, those guys are true OU breakers

--------------
Heatran to Dnite

**reliable**

:Heatran::Metagross::Gyarados::Rotom::Gengar::Swampert::Lucario::Gliscor::Dragonite:
competent team members
--------------
Zone to Starmie
**solid options**

:Magnezone::Empoleon::Zapdos::Hippowdon::Azelf::Bronzong::Starmie:
competent as well but require some more planning/conditions be met
--------------
Suicune to Ape

**team specific**

:Suicune::Quagsire::Machamp::Scizor::Roserade::Forretress::Blissey::Kingdra::Infernape:
not as reliable but can be good sometimes
--------------
Milotic to Slowbro

**niche utility**
:Milotic::Nidoqueen::Mamoswine::Magneton::Uxie::Celebi::Aerodactyl::Gastrodon::Donphan::Qwilfish::Froslass::Ludicolo::Camerupt::Raikou::Abomasnow::Gallade::Togekiss::Shaymin::Cresselia::Heracross::Tentacruel::Rhyperior::Slowbro:
only if your team needs them
--------------
Moltres to Steelix

**Dark territory**
:Moltres::Weavile::Claydol::Vaporeon::Hitmontop::Mesprit::Venusaur::Smeargle::Crobat::Kabutops::Slowking::Jolteon::Exeggutor::Dusknoir::Porygon2::Victreebel::Snorlax::Feraligatr::Aggron::Alakazam::Yanmega::Umbreon::Walrein::Azumarill::Muk::Staraptor::Probopass::Steelix:
generally ungood unless some dark magic
--------------


- Big shifts -

Since the VR has not been updated for a while, I will focus my attention on major shifts.

Emergence of a big 5

Normal (13).png
Normal (18).png
Normal (16).png
Normal (17).png
Normal (19).png


Everyone seems to agree on these guys being on top of the others with very low variance

Individual shifts

Normal (9).png
43 -> 25

Resilience against Jirachi, DDer safety belt, ground-type compressing the role of a water resist

Normal (12).png
18 -> 6
Spikes abuser, Heatran abuser, threatening the big 5

Normal (13).png
11 -> 4

Knock Off + Magic Guard

Normal (14).png
unranked -> 36
Spikes + Jirachi limiter, faster than DDers with Choice Scarf

Normal (10).png
6 -> 23

Offensive spin barely exists anymore, residual damage do be crippling

Normal (11).png
10 -> 32

Not durable against residuals, not much useful resistances, Latias is everywhere

Normal (15).png
4 -> 11

Scarf variants are not as dangerous, Sub dislikes Encore
  • Clefable and Flygon are definitely OU top tiers
  • Quagsire has replaced Milotic as the water of choice for defense.
  • Magneton has been ranked by almost everyone.
  • Infernape and Starmie are no longer OU top tiers
  • Rotom has lost some of its power
 
What's the purpose of keeping Mons like Electivire and Dusknoir in OU when they were a prank well over a decade ago? Why keep them held there when they've clearly not been OU by realistic means yet tier changes like Latias happen?
 

Le Don

Le Roi des Rats
is a Community Contributor
RoAPL Champion
my-image(23).png


Hi, that's not my VR from June used by Vapicuno for the stats. I made this one in October because the other one was bad on some points ( Zapdos kekw ). This is the update of my first VR.

Jirachi : Ofc it's #1, ofc it's broken, ofc it has an enourmous movepool and a ton of different sets, ofc it can bs a lot of teams even if you're prepared for it ... I saw many people talking about an Iron Head / Jirachi ban. I'm not for it but I'm not against. Tbh I can't imagine a Tar staying in on Jirachi because it doesn't have Iron Head anymore. But the way how Jirachi destroys a lot of offensive teams and bs some others is stupid so I understand why some people wants to ban it.

Tyranitar : I took my time to answer that question : Tar or Lati for #2 ? I chose Tar just because the Dragon Dance set is broken ( DD Taunt Tar my love ). It has a lot of unexplored potential, synergies and its massive bulk is so fucking good ( 252+ Loom needs rocks to have a chance to KO it !! ) etc etc. Scarf is a very good Gar / Lati / Rotom limiter, soft check to Tar / Superrachi / SD Lucario ( without Bpunch ofc ), a very good rocker etc etc, Scarf Trick absorber. Band isn't a Draco absorber with rocks up ( you need a bulky steel with it ), same for the AoA sets / SR 3 attacks set or you need a lot of SpD invests but that means that you lose a lot of power. Anyway those sets are too slow and it's most of the time Jirachi food. SpD Tar can be ok smtimes and BoahTar is not good but can have good MU vs some stalls. Sand is also very important for the no-weather MU but can be handicapping for your own team.

Latias : Draco :regiF: ... well, Lati with its great bulk, movepool, speed and typing adds a lot in a team. Modest Draco is strong as f, Clef can't switch on it. Defensive sets are ofc very good. I also really really like the CM 2 Atks set / CM 3 Atks, even without Spikes, does a very good job at cleaning / breaking and HP Fire lures very well Scizor / Forre which is satisfying. Scarf is still good but you have to be safe vs DD Tar because Twave cannot save you everytime ( Lum Berry ). The only thing I don't like on it is the U-Turn weakness and that means that a pokemon that it is supposed to check like Nape can be then horrible to manage. Doesn't like Sand.

Clefable : Magic Guard. Doesn't die to Spikes / don't need spin support. Knock off abuser / absorber. Encore is incredible on it, cancels most of setup sweepers; Twave / Hbell are also very consistant. I don't really like SR Clef, imo it's a setup folder for any mon and Clef is already passive, I don't want be even more passive vs setups. Ibeam / Protect as last slot can be ok in some teams. CM Clef isn't good anymore because every team is prepared against it, especially myself but I'm probably underestimating it. A set with LO + 3 Atks and Soft can be very effective sometimes kekw. Alas it cannot really switch on Specs Lati because Modest 2HKO it and it's not fat as Blissey can be so it can be harder smtimes to manage special setups. Still very very good ofc. Can be Taunt food but has Knock and Stoss to pressure so that's ok. Really really likes Sand.

Skarm : Spikes. It's the reason why MixGon is broken, why we have a lot of spikes immu in stall teams ( 4 at least ) and Scarf Tar / DD Tar is broken with them. Skarm is the best spiker because it has Roost, very good defensive typing and stats, Taunt which allows you to be aggressive with it etc. Counter = safer vs Scizor and DDers but it can be difficult to use it correctly. SR on it is still fine and Payback is cool to hit very hard Gengar / Rotom on the switch ( s/o SoS ). Sadly, it's not very safe against Rachi ( Thunder / Tbolt ), very passive smtimes and it's very easy to bs it with your DDers thx to crits / flinches etc. Taunt food.

Flygon : Good Heatran check / Ground and Elec immu. MixGon is excellent vs offense / BO and with Spikes it's better vs fat structures because Hippo / Milo / Bliss cannot switch on it anymore. Has an insane synergy with Shed Skarm. I like Outrage > Roost, great way to destroy HO or bulky teams when you don't have Spikes. +SpA MixGon with some Atk evs is imo the best Flygon, it has no counter because Clef has good chances to get 2HKO by Draco + EQ. Idrk why, I don't use it a lot myself, probably because its speed can be irritating smtimes ( vs Lati / Rachi / Rotom / Suicune etc ) and if y don't do the right play, opp can pivot around easily and get advantage of a -2 MixGon ( that's why I like Outrage ) and lacks a bit of power. Also, most of the teams have now a pokemon that outspeed Jirachi because how annoying it is so this pokemon also outspeed Flygon which is very annoying. Scarf is ok but you have to be safe vs Gyara if you have Roost as last move and overall vs Luc. Band has a very effective surprise factor but it's hard to fit. Sub sets are fine and works well in the right team. Likes Sand.

Breloom : Ground / Water resist. Huge longevity thx to Poison Heal. Spore, FPunch and Leech Seed are all incredible on it. It is extremely threatening in the builder and powerful during the battle. Spore Sub / Stun Spore / Toxic is ok but you really want Mach Punch for DD Tar or you're safe against it. Spore 3 Atks is the best set, especially with FPunch. Lead Loom is one of my favorite lead, it gets most of the time a Spore off and then it can paralyse other mons with Stun Spore or it can FPunch to apply a huge early pressure. Defensive is also very very solid. I spammed it recently and it's impressive to see how many teams dislike Leech + Protect. Even Spore less variants are good, Toxic is huge vs Lati and Seed Bomb is important to pressure Tom / Mie to not allow a free spin. Atm I prefer Sky Uppercut > Force Palm because of the extra power against Lati / Champ / Loom / Rachi etc, it saved me a lot of games. Scarf is also a good if you have backup vs Dnite / Luc and Meta. SD outside of paraspam is meh. Spore atm is fine. Likes and dislikes Sand.

Metagross : Bulky and powerful, Draco sponge not weak to Surf or Tbolt and has Explosion. It's the glue of a lot of offensive teams and a very good rocker. Iball ( Offensive or SpD ) cancels any pokemon with a single move aka Trick. Leftovers ( Offensive, SpD, ToxTect ) is an excellent Jirachi check and can be a good pursuiter. Agility ( Lum / Shuca / Liechi with Natural Gift ) is still threatening but has the 4 moves syndrom. Lead outside of Iball isn't good. Scarf is a decent pursuiter and revenge killer. Tect is good but soooo hard to fit. Sadly, it's slow, its typing is good but could have been better, it's easy to pivot around early game because you don't really like to explode early game, checked by Gliscor / Skarm / Rotom without Iball. Likes Sand to pressure waters and Loom.

Gengar : I love this pokemon. Fast, powerful and versatile, Explosion, good offensive and defensive typing, antispin. WoW + Taunt set is very effective at making progress ( especially with Spikes ) or at preventing Spikes / setups. Knock is awesome with +Spe MixGon and can remove Scarf from Tar. Split / Protect > WoW is ok, the first gives you more longevity and the second one gives you a way to escape from Tar and force Spikes damage on it ( good synergy with CM Lati ). LO set is still very powerful and a good sleep absorber but limited by Scarf Tar. Colbur + Counter can be good smtimes and like DBond / Sucker it has a very good surprise effect because it's not common on Gar. I personally don't like Sub Gar, other moves are too important and it's Encore Clef food. Alas, Scarf Tar is everywhere and it's bulk is not good so it drops very easily if you are not careful with it. I always run +Spe but I like to drop Spe / SpA EVs for more bulk ( useful vs Loom and Starmie ). Likes and dislikes Sand.

Gliscor : This mon is soooo versatile : many many spreads, insane movepool allowing it to be played defensively or offensively, Ground + Elec immu, good rocker, Taunt etc. It also fits in every teamstyle ( even HO yup ). Slow ( or not ) U-Turn / Def 3 Atk sets are very useful pivots for BO / Balance / Stall teams ( Taunt Turn lead my love ). SD sets lacks of power and speed but are still good especially with some para or/and trap support. Taunt sets are ok but not very good at stallbreaking because of Knock being everywhere and now Def Lati runs IBeam for it. A good mon overall.

Gyarados : HO pillar. It adds so much in offensive teams that you can't really go wrong with it. Waterfall is stupid, it's very threatening in the builder too because it can bs your slow team very easily ( that's why I'm a Magneton spammer lol ). It also helps a lot vs Rain. Wacan / Lum = clutch factor on HO. Sub sets are very good and Taunt sets are less good but better vs stall overall. Thxfully it hates rocks and offensive spin almost no longer exists so it's very rare nowdays in BO teams, you really prefer to run it on HO teams with a suicide lead that can prevent rocks and/or with Hwish support. Magneton / Quag resurgence is also not good for it. CB is not very good with Quag being common but still fine vs BOs / offenses. Resttalk is imo only good in stall teams with Forre as spinner because the synergy is just perfect. Doesn't like sand.

Lucario : Mostly SD and Scarf. The first set ... same as Gyarados, you have to be prepared for it. LO / Shuca / Sash are all good on it. The second one is a very good HO controler and cleaner. Every Luc sets like Spikes. Agility Luc is fine but can lack of power. SD Endure is insane vs Balance teams. But I have 2 major problems : the first one is simple and it is Jirachi / Mag which can revenge kill it easily and the second one is that Luc needs a lot of support to be consistant. It's not a pokemon that you can run in your team and say " it will destroy everything ". You need ( most of the time ) Spikes, trap support ( depending of your last move ) etc. It's also hard to setup because of its poor bulk but once you clicked SD it's insane at breaking. Other sets are unexplored.

Rotom : Best antispin, ground immu, burn status is terrifying and it can be very hard to break. Restalk is the best, great longevity and a good Mix/Phys Rachi check, less seen on stall because spinning is so rare rn that you can legit say " Idc about spinners in the builder " and you have to choose between Tbolt and Sball and that means that you can't be good against both Loom and Gyara ( I don't think WoW is replaceable but I guess you can run Tbolt + Sball ). Sub sets are less good because Encore Clef but still decent vs offense. Scarf is fine but Gyara now runs Wacan Berry, DD Tar is everywhere, SD Zor runs Pursuit ( not mainly for it however ) ... but somehow some teams ignore it in the builder, more prepared vs Scarf Luc for exemple. Specs and Rain Dance sets works well in the right team. Doesn't like sand.

Heatran : I'm not high on it and I don't use it a lot because it fits almost only in offensive teams but I respect it enough to place it the A rank. It hates Koff, para and Clef. Weak to Surf ( hi Lati ) and very weak to ground attacks so cannot switch safely on Gross. Mag now runs often HP Ground for Heatran. Dies on Spikes, no longevity outside of Leftovers and Rest. BUT it has an insane bulk, a great SpA, access to Explosion and Taunt and a Fire immu. Imo the best way to use it is offensively : Sash Lead, Sash + Taunt on HO, SR/Filler + 3 Atks ( Passho, Custap or Leftovers ), trapper, Specs with Eruption ... all good sets. Scarf needs a Gyarados and DD Tar check. Defensive sets are, sry if it hurts, trash. Tormant needs so much support without Dug that it's almost unusable. Likes sand to chip Latias / Starmie etc.

Empoleon : I don't like Heatran but I like a lot Empoleon. Not weak to rocks and to Surf so safer vs Lati, Knock Off to annoy Clef / Starmie / others, doesn't care about Para, good movepool, fits in every teamstyle. SpD is great, bulky 3 Atk Modest as rocker in offense as well with/out Knock ( Shuca / Leftovers ), offensive lead is fine, Agility is meh, you have to run Timid to outspeed Scarf Rotom / Luc but you lose so much power ( ig with Petaya it's fine ) and you don't even outspeed Timid Flygon :worrywhirl: but it's still fine against "slow teams" ( speed control = Scarf Metagross, for example Finch vs Yelo for Classic ). Likes sand to chip Breloom / Latias / Starmie etc.

Dragonite : HO / Offense only imo. Lum / LO / Sash // Yache. +1 Outrage is powerful but it dies very quickly and opp takes easily advantage of it by stacking spikes with Skarm or just by revenge killing it. If you don't run Outrage then you don't KO anything bulky ... kek. But it's very very good at forcing trades / damage because this thing is powerful. I like DD Sash lead and Sub DD a lot, Classic DD is still good too, MixNite is ok especially with Espeed and bulky DD is not very good because it's so hard to setup and needs so much support. CB doesn't exist anymore. Hates sand.

Swampert : With Spikes being everywhere it's hard to justify it on bulky teams where you prefer Quag / Gastro, hates Knock, lacks a bit of power to really force out Latias for ex. It doesn't have a recovery move outside of Protect / Rest but it has rocks and good offensive stats so I like Swampert a lot on offense ( Special max speed or MixPert to not give free Spikes to Skarm / free Clef ). It also adds the important elec immu. PhysPert / TankPert imo needs Mag support for Skarm. Toxic / Refresh are cool options especially Toxic for Quag / Lati. I will not talk about the other sets because I used them like 1 or 2 times in 2022. Likes sand to chip Breloom / Latias / Starmie etc.

Zapdos : Well, I still don't use it a lot but it's good. Pressure is incredible, you can pp stall a lot of things notably Clef which is huge for a incoming abuser like Suicune. Toxic with/out Sub is very good on it and has excellent synergies with a lot of pokemons ( Raikou / CM Jirachi / Suicune etc ). Twave / U-Turn is also good. I personally don't like offensive sets, your main stab being resisted by Lati is meh and you don't really pressure Clef without Specs but if you run Specs then you're prediction reliant which I really don't like. Weak to rocks, usually needs spin support but it's fine with those fat structures dropping the ghost type. Doesn't like sand.

Magnezone : Skarm / Jirachi limiter, access to Explosion, good physical bulk, more able to trap Bronzong / Metagross / Forretress with the good moveset ( not like Magneton ). Leftovers is the best for Jirachi ( if you don't run into HP Ground ... ). Custap is very useful against offense. Scarf is ok if you have the backup for DDers if not just use Magneton lol. I like HP Grass a lot for Ground types. Sadly it has limited options, no recovery, it's slow and it has the 4 moves syndrom because it's "Hidden Power dependent" : smtimes you need Grass, smtimes Fire, smtimes Ground etc. I also don't like to rely on it to beat Skarm because Shed Shell exists so I like to have backup against it like a Physical Knock user.
I feel it's still very unexplored, especially when you look at the EVs : most of the time you have 252 SpA x 252+ Spe and that's all. Pretty sure we can drop SpA or Spe for more bulk because we don't need a lot to KO Skarm for ex and it's a roll for SpD Skarm even with 252+ so ... :blobshrug:. But do you really need bulk when you don't have recovery and when you still drop on EQ / CC / Fire Blast etc ? Ig you just prefer maximise offensive stats ...

Unviable rn ( was viable before ) / not good enough to be ranked or I just don't know what does that do ( I can try to imagine but why Ariados wtf ). I think the best pokemon in this rank is Mesprit because it has Healing Wish / Twave and an amazing movepool.

I will edit later, if I find time, to explain my choices / finish. Done : S1, S2, A+, A, A-, unranked
Thank you for reading :sphearical:.

 
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They're already labeled in showdown as OU by technicality, to indicate their lack of viability. There's no reason to mess with DPP UU by putting them in that tier, and putting them in BL would imply they were tested and banned from UU, which is not true.
That's why you test them there first then see if they'd become BL, that's how it works. You'll never know if they'll "mess up" a tier if they've never been tried in the first place

Latias is the perfect example for this and this wasn't too long ago. People gotta give it a break that their meta has to stay the same forever aka BW2 players
 
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Reverb

World's nicest narcissist
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Can we please move Smeargle from E-tier? It's a great hazards lead. I used it on a very successful team (#2 on ladder for what that is worth).

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
 
2023 rankings

S
:tyranitar: dd is threatening and Just Wins Games. Support sets are fine and pursuit is a guaranteed way to make progress (see BKC’s invitational matches). Choice band is a great breaker and enabler, scarf glues many semistalls together. Best mon in the tier.

:jirachi: i don’t like physical 3 atks these days… it struggles to make progress in a lot of scenarios while not having theWalling Power of wishtect. 4 atks mixed, mixed SR are where it’s at and extremely good. Wishtect (both pdef and sdef) is still strong but harder to fit these days… superrachi is decent althoughsuffers greatlyfrom 4mss. Scarf is bad… yeah, it’s jira. It’ll always be good

A+
:Breloom: - hot take having him this high but giving this mon free turns is a scary proposition. Good in the lead slot, good in the back. Impossible to wear down thru passive means. pdef sets r neat to live ttar firepunches. Fast sets guarantee progress… dual powder is underrated. Just enough options to keep you guessing, and always effective.
:Skarmory: - spikes are good and this is the best spiker bar none. Beyond that, it’s a great check to most physical attackers, and holds its own in the fat mirror given its immunity to sand, spikes, and toxic… gets the nod over clef because it also fits on offenses as both a suicide lead and generic spiker.
:clefable: dr clef. We’re at a point where clef can really do whatever it wants with its 4th moveslot on bulky structures. Encore, twave, healbell, cosmic power, wish, protect, etc. it’s the backbone of every bulky team, and every playstyle must be wary of it or they’ll eventually get choked out. cm exists too (washed me in spl) but is generally like a B rank mon. Support clef is thr face of modern dpp,
:Gyarados: - dd is a menace. By far the scariest sweeper in the tier - there’s always risk that you just lose to it as it has just the right amount of bulk, moves, and item choices that it can pick and choose its counters. Then there’s waterfall - sometimes you’re on the receiving end of that 20% and that’s game. Great mon, everything u want in a sweeper. SR is the only thing keeping this out of S rank, it’s just that good.

A
:Heatran: - a great breaker with good enough typing to pivot and generate momentum. Very customizable with items and spreads. Almost always trades up in value thanks to great boom targets. Just all around a great mon.
:Latias: - i’m not as high on this mon as others. Firstly defensive sets are an absolute liability because this is the easiest mon to pursuit trap in the entire tier, and the literal the Best Mon walks all over latias. It’s bad teambuilding to rely on this as a consistent defensive check… it’s fine for a 1-time thing i guess… That said, offensive sets certainly have merit. Speed tier is excellent, typing and bulk provide unique and much-needed resists for offense (water, fire, electric, grass, fighting…). Specs, LO/Lum CM, mixed draco plate are worth using. Scarf is also a great gluemon, with trick, draco, tbolt, and healingwish. S rank when not facing ttar, and B rank when it does… I’ll split the difference on A.
:rotom-heat: - pretty good mon. Scarf is the ultimate glue but again struggles with the ttar issue. Fortunately for Rotom, it’s blessed with will o wisp… making it a more reliable defensive mon and giving ttar a reason to tread with caution. Also the sturdiest spinblocker on fat squads. Non-choice offensive sets deserve some love too - metronome subsplit beats clef, sub wow is great at pressurized ttar, charge beam is a nightmare for hippo fat.
:Metagross: - great typing, great bulk, good movepool. SR or just utility check setz are great as glue - meta checks just about everything softly but hard counters nothing, and sometimes that’s great. Ironball is pretty good at finding targets, although it requires some finesse to get the most mileage. Agility is a great anyi offense tool, and scarf also gets a lot of praise from me for the same reason. Mixed is underexplored, the only set that doesn’t love mag support (mash/psychic/earthquake, hp fire, grassknot, boom)
:Gengar: - good speed tier, all the tools it needs. I like it way more now that Lum berry tech has been discovered. Unfortunately relies on Focus blast which keeps it down here in A

A-
:Zapdos: - goddamn this mon is underrated. Defensive sets are still menacing on bulky teams and one of the best checks to dders, great at breaking pp parity (especially with clef dropping twave). Tox is a great option on all sets to pressure lati, grounds. Pretty high on offensive sets rn as well - specs, toxtect lum lead, max spa modest lefties roost are naturally great into offense and can still make progress vs fat when paired with pursuit
:dragonite: - mr nite. good dder
:Magneton: - eclisped its final forme because its speed tier is way better. It can revenge adamant gyara and dnite and that’s worth a lot for most teams compared to a bit more power and bulk.
:swampert: - ah pert. This mon is the ultimate utility check and just ungodly annoying for bulky offenses to face. can be bad into stall. Biggest downside to using this mon is letting loom in.
:Flygon: - choice sets feel pretty bad atm, although scarf is still the quintessential offense killer. Not high on mixed like others because it’s either too weak or too slow and can struggle to find entry points… the structures it truly preys on have slowly dropped off. Still can be useful though, just make sure to run +spe natures… I’m intrigued by the physical sub sets making the rounds as well
:Starmie: - well here we are. Starmie is back, baby. Scarftar has fallen off in usage and as such, mie is suddenly good again. Don’t expect it to last forever as a spinner - but it can regain momentum once by spinning, and exerts respectable pressure with good coverage off 100 SpA

B+
:empoleon:
:gliscor:
:Hippowdon:
:Suicune:
:Quagsire:
:Donphan:
:Machamp:
:Infernape:

B
:Abomasnow:
:Forretress:
:Bronzong:
:Celebi:
:scizor:
:Magnezone:
:Aerodactyl:
:Azelf:
:Roserade:

B-
:Mamoswine:
:Froslass:
:Lucario:
:Milotic:
:Blissey:
:Kingdra:
:Gastrodon:

Don’t care abt the rest tbh

Will update fully later as there are additional hot takes in B rank
 
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1694369921451.png



1694369960930.png


I know a lot of people rank it hight, but personally I don't think it's that good. Obviously it has nice traits like intimidate/good movepoll and stats, but it struggles to break down defensive mons such as def skarmory/latias/restalk rotom/zapdos/bold clefable, etc... It's also weak to sand and rocks, so if you're forced out by scarf latias/rotom, which is a common scenario, you'll comeback to 50%. It's just not easy to find the opportunity to setup then sweep the game. I think CB and defensive set are the best.

1694370275723.png


I think the fact that gengar is a fight/ground immunity, and pressures threats like Breloom/Gliscor and Jirachi at once while being able to pressure defensive teams (and nothing can switch on it safely on offense), mean you can fit gengar in a lot of offenses. Honestly if WoW and Focus Blast were good I would consider to rank it top 2. It's just so good in my opinion.

1694370644010.png


It's really difficult to build a good team around Lucario, but I find it underrated. Recently I have seen a lot of teams where SD Lucario could just solo win with the right setup. Overall with the right setup there are only a very few mons that can revenche kill it. I think we gotta stop being lazy and try new things around this mon, it's not bad at all. Good into both offense and defense. Special sets/4 att's might have potential.

1694370882656.png


Swampert being able to check Jirachi/Tyranitar, elecs and some physical mons is still good, but it's not easy to build around in my opinion. It's useless vs stall while it's one of the most popular archetype nowadays. It lets in for free mons like Breloom/Gyarados/Skarmory/Latias in one slot when those are some of the mons you have to be most careful against. Maybe tank pert with roar/protect on clef structure have potential, but it's hard to justify it over mons like hippo.

1694371286891.png


I decided to rank magneton higher than zone, I think the speed matters a lot in a metagame where sweepers (dd Tyranitar/Gyarados/Dragonite/SD Lucario...) are very popular. However magnezone is still fantastic, I think max SpDef set might have potential so you can pivot into threats like gengar/suicune/scarf rotom/zapdos, etc.

1694371732714.png


I rank it low because i'm a big fan of bulky offensive teams (even if i know the concept is not eeasy to be clearly defined) and Azelf is usually a poor choice. I mean it's a good lead obviously, but there are a lot of threats in DPP that every mons slot is really precious in order to check the threats, and in this case azelf is just mediocre. It will just add sr early, gives you momentum early game, and ideally para/weaken something. I don't like relying on explosion. Really bad into scarf ttar lead. I think azelf fits best on heavy offensive team, like HO/setup spam, which i'm not really fan personally.

1694372144101.png


I think cradily is underrated. With sand it's spdef profile is similar to blissey, great movepoll (curse/recover/sword dance/toxic...), nice ability so you don't really need mag to trap skarmory. Unfortunately it needs a lot of support but I think it's cool.

1694372357088.png


I have it pretty low. Mixnite is walled by hippowledon (although aqua tail version over superpower/extreme speed is interessing), heavily prediction reliant. DD set is not that good into skarm/hippo structure, being locked into outrage is meh. Rocks/sand weak, etc. Bulky sets are mediocre.

1694372490187.png


Suicune is a great lead, fantastic against both offense and defense (thanks to lum), ok into Jirachi/Tyranitar/Latias. Love this mon.

1694377207557.png


I don't rank Tyranitar that hight mainlybecause it has a lot of weakness, so you have to be really careful to not endup being too ground/fight/water/jirachi weak. It lets in for 'free' threats like waters/loom/rachi. Sand is great but it can also annoy your own teammates. With all this, it's not the easiest thing to build around it.

1694372598526.png


I'm a big fan of Togekiss and I rank it pretty hight. Its bulk is insane, serene grace + air slash + thunder wave is broken, similar to Jirachi. It's a really good long term wincondition against stall, it's def the most underrated mon in this tier imo.

Thanks for reading.
 
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:latias: :tyranitar: :jirachi:
gods of the tier

I believe there is a strong, immovable top 3 composed of these folks. They all provide great defensive utility, offensive pressure and versatility at the same time. Their rank order don't matter that much, but Latias feels the best right now with scarf and defensive sets.

:heatran:
Best iron head switch in and decent Draco absorber. It's also a great tool to annoy stall teams with burn. I've started to like Wisp Overheat on defensive sets to both OHKO Gengar with minimal investment and threaten Ttar.

:Starmie:
Hippo stall without spinblock are more common and Starmie perfectly punishes those. Also decent breaker in its own right with a Choice Specs.

:Dragonite:
Dragon Dance sets suck because of Scarf Latias and double Steel while Mixed Sets often struggle with longevity. It's still a decent lead.

:Scizor:
Scizor has made quite a comeback with its ability to trap non specs Latias reliabily. CB and SD Lum sets are fine, SD Roost is underrated with magneton being unable to fit hp fire on its moveset.

:Infernape:
Defensive teams are more passive than during the ScarfTar semistall era, giving infernape more opportunities to come on the field unscathed. Leftovers suck; Expert Belt on offense and Life Orb on HO are better options.

:Gliscor:
Gliscor sucks right now. Sd and rocks sets are just ok, while taunt fails to break the stall teams it is tasked to beat. Some ScarfTar Gliscor spikes may come back to beat Starmie teams, in which case it may rise again.

:Swampert:
Too breloom and Skarm food in my taste. Tank set and Specially offensive are the way to go rn.

:Lucario:
Hates fast Fire Punch Jirachi. I haven't considered this mon seriously in a while but the popular Scarf Latias is complete setup bait, while Jirachi often holds a more supportive role rn.

:Forretress:
Heatran runs rocks therefore it is a tough period for Forry. Gyarastall remains a solid playstyle but Forry struggles to fit outside this structure.

:Magnezone: :Magneton:
I never liked Magnet Pull mons because magnezone sucks into dders/agility while Magneton can't pivot into anything; if skarm has shed shell you just lose and if you plan for shed shell skarm with lures/ offensive pressure then why are you running mag in the first place ? Typing wise both Magnezone and Magneton give a nasty weakness to grounds.

:Roserade:
Sucks into spikes teams, although with Hippo's popularity it's getting better. Sleep Powder remains a strong tool against defensive teams.

:Blissey:
On stall it's always the same problem, the matchup vs Clefable stall teams. Calm max Spedef Blissey gives you a lot of free turns compared to Clef vs offensive teams as you can easily switch out at 60% and be fine for the next assault. Max HP Bold has its place on balance teams where Blissey can stay on things such as Flygon, Metagross and uninvested Swampert but such thing is not required on defensive squads who can simply pivot into Skarm or Hippo. Sandless balance still works fine.



B2 and under are gimmicks. You may find moderate success with B2 and C1 if you really like the mon.
 
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i was thinking that if
1694408405292.png
had base 100 hp instead of base 90 hp it would be so much more viable. (101 subs would help it so much for its fp leech seed set)
 
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